Question
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U.S. Government
From About.com: http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2005/02/15/misattributed-diss...
We know Howard Zinn said it in 2002. Does Thomas Jefferson agree?
Here are some Thomas Jefferson quotes from the commentators on the above blog:
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He didn’t say it but he might have agreed with it. Here’s a quote by Jefferson along the same lines: “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then.”
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As evidence that Jefferson probably would not have expressed such a sentiment, we offer the following (genuine) quote:“Political dissension is doubtless a less evil than the lethargy of despotism: but still it is a great evil, and it would be as worthy the efforts of the patriot as of the philosopher, to exclude it’s influence if possible, from social life.
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And how could we forget this: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants”
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“Most codes extend their definitions of treason to acts not really against one’s country. They do not distinguish between acts against the government, and acts against the oppressions of the government. The latter are virtues, yet have furnished more victims to the executioner than the former, because real treasons are rare; oppressions frequent."
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"Every generation needs a new revolution."
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Thomas Jefferson the patriot would agree with dissent, because the Declaration of Independence is infact dissent.
http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html
We know Howard Zinn said it in 2002. Does Thomas Jefferson agree?
Here are some Thomas Jefferson quotes from the commentators on the above blog:
*******************
He didn’t say it but he might have agreed with it. Here’s a quote by Jefferson along the same lines: “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then.”
*******************
As evidence that Jefferson probably would not have expressed such a sentiment, we offer the following (genuine) quote:“Political dissension is doubtless a less evil than the lethargy of despotism: but still it is a great evil, and it would be as worthy the efforts of the patriot as of the philosopher, to exclude it’s influence if possible, from social life.
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And how could we forget this: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants”
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“Most codes extend their definitions of treason to acts not really against one’s country. They do not distinguish between acts against the government, and acts against the oppressions of the government. The latter are virtues, yet have furnished more victims to the executioner than the former, because real treasons are rare; oppressions frequent."
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"Every generation needs a new revolution."
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Thomas Jefferson the patriot would agree with dissent, because the Declaration of Independence is infact dissent.
http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html
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Answered Thomas Jefferson disagrees, Howard Zinn is a looney
There is a fine line between patriotic dissent and media induced mob action. Acts of civil disobedience based on a grievence that has to do with the general good of the people is miles from a personal grievence. We are in a period of self indulgent disobedience by small special interests groups that often go counter to the general welfare of the public. -
Answered Thomas Jefferson agrees
It would be really nice if the right wingers out there would actually take the time to read the Declaration of Independence. There, Thomas Jefferson said:
"when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."
What that means is that when the people in charge violate the very principles upon which their leadership is based, they are not fit to lead, and we, as the ones being led, have an absolute responsibility to get rid of them. -
Answered Thomas Jefferson disagrees, Howard Zinn is a looney
I don't think Jefferson would agree with the general statement, but I also don't think Zinn is a looney, just a little misguided! It depends upon the circumstances, i.e., whether we are we at war, and the nature of the dissent! I certainly don't believe that all dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Jane Fonda, for example, was a traitor in my mind when she traveled to North Viet Nam and gave aid and comfort to the enemy while Americans were dying at their hands. That was dissent which was decidedly not patriotic!
Who said this: "When I hear a man advising the American people to state the terms of peace . . . I know he is working for [the enemy]." and this "Any man who refuses to back the President in this crisis is worse than a traitor."
Must have been some right-wing kook, right? Wrong! Both of those statements came from the very liberal attorney, Clarence Darrow, during the First World War, in support of Woodrow Wilson. Darrow, you may recall, is an icon to the left for his defense of Darwinism in the "Scopes Monkey Trial."
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There are definitely levels of dissent and situations which are decidedly NOT patriotic.
I love I have the freedom to be dissident.
Thomas Jefferson offers the idea that we should be intelligent about our dissidence, not just blanket contrary.
good points, well said. -
It's important to go back to the founders to see if we're still on the right track when we quote something like this. It's important to us that these are words upon which we stand. I think the conciseness of Howard Zinn's language is hyperbolic when compared to Jefferson's original ideals. The question is from here is, can Zinn's words be adopted as America's words.
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We all have to decide if our dissent is good for America, or just for us. If we need a soundbite, and it fits our feelings on the matter, use it, but credit it properly. You could even add that it was based on the words of Thomas Jefferson. But there are still some people who will use it for causes that you or I or Thomas Jefferson would not approve.
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Answered Thomas Jefferson agrees
Thomas Jefferson was one of the most intelligent individuals when it comes to the ideas of politics...He is also someone who would seriously be offended and embarassed by what is going on today.
People tend to forget that the "Founding Fathers" were in fact, rabble rousing, delinquent, angry men. They would probably be insulted with the way they're viewed today...
Answered Thomas Jefferson disagrees, Howard Zinn is a looney
I don't think Jefferson would agree with the general statement, but I also don't think Zinn is a looney, just a little misguided! It depends upon the circumstances, i.e., whether we are we at war, and the nature of the dissent! I certainly don't believe that all dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Jane Fonda, for example, was a traitor in my mind when she traveled to North Viet Nam and gave aid and comfort to the enemy while Americans were dying at their hands. That was dissent which was decidedly not patriotic!Who said this: "When I hear a man advising the American people to state the terms of peace . . . I know he is working for [the enemy]." and this "Any man who refuses to back the President in this crisis is worse than a traitor."
Must have been some right-wing kook, right? Wrong! Both of those statements came from the very liberal attorney, Clarence Darrow, during the First World War, in support of Woodrow Wilson. Darrow, you may recall, is an icon to the left for his defense of Darwinism in the "Scopes Monkey Trial."