Apr 24, 2008 06:36PM GMTApril 24, 2008 18:36:54
Question Science - Other
Posted by Ihr Hase

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raves +12  
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Energy Independence and the ecological price of oil, as opposed to complaining about oil why not discuss an option, What about Nuclear Energy?

Please Follow the links at the bottom of the page for more information, there are very real and serious arguments for both sides, and I would like to hear peoples input on this.

Nuclear Energy “Pros & Cons”

January 2006

Mr. Alan Mc Donald, a senior officer in the IAEA Department of Nuclear Energy, helped answer these questions.

Do you believe that the positive aspects of nuclear energy outweigh the negatives? Why or why not?

The IAEA has found that the weighing of pros and cons comes out differently for different countries.

The most important determinant will be cost-competitiveness compared to alternatives. Nuclear power plants have a ‘front-loaded’ cost structure, i.e. they are relatively expensive to build but relatively inexpensive to operate. Thus existing well-run operating reactors continue to be a generally competitive profitable source of electricity.

But for new construction, the economic competitiveness of nuclear power depends on several factors.

First, it depends on the alternatives available. Some countries are rich in alternative energy resources, others less so. Some alternatives that used to be cheap and attractive in the past may be less so in the future – e.g. coal for environmental reasons or natural gas for cost reasons.
Second, it depends on the overall electricity demand in a country and how fast it is growing.
Third, it depends on the market structure and investment environment. Other things being equal, nuclear power’s front-loaded cost structure is less attractive to a private investor in a liberalized market that values rapid returns, than to a government that can look longer-term, particularly in a regulated market that assures attractive returns. Private investments in liberalized markets will also depend on the extent to which energy-related external costs and benefits (e.g. pollution, GHG emissions, waste and energy supply security) have been internalized. In contrast, government investors can incorporate such externalities directly into their decisions.
Also important are regulatory risks. Different countries have different approval processes, and political support varies. Some processes are less predictable than others and create greater investment risks. Finally, it depends on national preferences and priorities as expressed in national policies. How countries trade off among considerations including environmental quality, jobs, occupational hazards, energy security and energy costs is at least partly a matter of national preference, and thus an area of legitimate disagreement – even where there is agreement as to the relevant facts.

Is it necessary to replace older nuclear energy stations with those that are more technologically advanced, or would it be more sensible to focus on alternative forms of energy, such as renewable energy?

Focusing on both nuclear power and alternative forms of energy would be advisable at this point in time.

There are good reasons why expectations are currently rising about nuclear power: a good and lengthening track record, increasing energy needs, rising oil and natural gas prices, new environmental constraints, concerns about energy supply security, the nuclear expansion plans of key countries, and the increasingly bullish projections of experts.

But “necessary” is too strong and sweeping a word. Renewables may yet be able to expand at the pace predicted by their strongest advocates, rather than at the more modest rates found in more dispassionate studies. Technological advances may allow cheap coal combustion with carbon sequestration and no GHG emissions. More exotically, nanotechnology may develop solar cells that can be spread on structures like a coat of paint, or genetic engineering might yield microorganisms that use sunlight directly to split water and produce hydrogen.

Most likely, however, the best energy strategies for countries will remain less dramatic. They will vary with national situations, and each will involve a mix of energy sources. New nuclear power plants are most attractive where energy demand growth is rapid, alternative resources are scarce, energy supply security is a priority or reducing air pollution and GHG emissions is mandated. Nuclear expansion currently remains centred in the Far East and South Asia where these factors are most immediate. But the ‘area of immediacy’ appears to be broadening to include particularly Europe and North America. How quickly this happens will depend partly on expectations about market factors, such as the increasing price of natural gas. It will also depend on government policies that encourage long-term thinking, such as those driven by the Kyoto Protocol.

How is spent nuclear fuel managed and what radioactive disposal methods are feasible but have not yet been implemented?

Two different management strategies are used for spent nuclear fuel.

In one, the fuel is reprocessed to extract usable material (uranium and plutonium) for new fuel. In the other, spent fuel is simply considered a waste and is stored pending disposal. If the spent fuel is to be reprocessed, it is shipped to a reprocessing facility where the fuel elements and fuel rods are chopped into pieces, the pieces are chemically dissolved, and the resulting solution is separated into four basic outputs: uranium, plutonium, high level waste (HLW), and various other process wastes. In terms of cooling and shielding, the HLW, which contains fission products and actinides, needs to be handled similarly to spent fuel of the same age. As of today, France, China, India, Japan and the Russian Federation reprocess most of their spent fuel, while Canada, Finland, Sweden and the USA have currently opted for direct disposal. Most countries have not yet decided which strategy to adopt. They are currently storing spent fuel and keeping abreast of developments associated with both alternatives.

However, several countries are also looking at ways to reduce the long-lived radiation burden from HLW. In February 2006, the USA announced a ‘Global Nuclear Energy Partnership’, which includes the development of advanced recycling technologies for use in the USA. France has a three-axis strategy: (1) partitioning and transmutation (P&T) to reduce the long-lived burden, (2) both retrievable and non-retrievable geological repositories, and (3) conditioning and long term storage. Other countries are also doing research on P&T.

If one considers four options (wait-and-see, direct disposal of spent fuel, reprocessing to recycle plutonium eventually in fast reactors, and P&T) here are the basic pros and cons of each of them.

(1) Wait-and-see:

Pros: It is politically and economically the cheapest. Storage is a proven technology with 50 years of experience and success. Extended storage for another 100 or 200 years presents no particularly worrisome obstacles. It allows people and politicians in each country to take as long as they want (centuries if they wish) to work out what their collective preference is for final disposal. It allows the cheapest adjustment to changing circumstances, e.g. if the economics of recycling plutonium change or new technologies are developed. It’s supported by substantial sections of the public where systematic surveys have been made (Canada and France).

Cons: It feels like leaving your garbage for someone else to deal with, i.e. it raises issues of ‘intergenerational equity’ to use the jargon. It creates political obstacles for nuclear power by allowing critics to claim ‘we don’t know how to solve the waste problem’. Accumulations of spent fuel in surface storage may be more attractive targets for proliferation, dirty-bomb or terrorist efforts than deeply buried accumulations.

(2) Direct disposal:

Pros: Currently it’s the second cheapest (only wait-and-see is cheaper). It’s technologically available. It has the political advantage of taking the ‘we don’t know how to solve the waste problem’ argument away from critics. It provides the satisfaction of ‘not leaving our garbage for someone else to deal with’.

Cons: It throws away a lot of usable energy. Recycling in fast reactors could increase the amount of energy extracted from uranium by a factor of 60. This possibility is forgone, or at least made much more difficult, by direct disposal. Direct disposal leaves a potential ‘plutonium mine’ that would be available (although with the difficulty of excavating a very deep site) to future proliferators for thousands of years.

(3) Recycling plutonium for mixed-oxide fuel and fast reactors:

Pros: It extracts 60 times the energy from uranium that a once-through fuel cycle with direct disposal extracts. It leaves no plutonium accumulations that might be proliferation or terrorist risks. It reduces the long-lived radiation burden of the resulting high-level waste.

Cons: It is currently only marginally cost-effective at best. It involves separating plutonium as part of the regular fuel cycle, which adds to proliferation risks.

(4) Partitioning and transmutation:

Pros: The first step in partitioning and transmutation is to separate and recycle plutonium in line with the pros and cons given above. In a second step other long-lived material is separated and destroyed by irradiation. This reduces the long-lived radiation burden and volume of HLW.

Cons: It is still in the research stage and thus currently, and prospectively, the most expensive option.

Is there a likelihood that alternative energy will not be properly implemented until there is no more room on the Earth to store nuclear waste containers?

In terms of geologically suitable sites, running out of space for nuclear waste is not an especially likely scenario. Right now the amount of spent fuel produced annually from all the world’s power reactors would be about two stories high on the area of a basketball court.

Nuclear power may have a longer or shorter run than, say, coal as an important energy source for the world, but eventually it will also be overtaken by something newer and better. That may be the renewables we’re familiar with today like wind and solar, or it might be fusion, or something arising from nanotechnology or genetic engineering, or something that we’re not even doing research on today. As the former Saudi oil minister used to say, “The Stone Age didn’t end because people ran out of stones.” His point was that the oil age will end before the world runs out of oil, and I believe that the nuclear age, to the extent there is one that deserves a label, will end before we run out of uranium or space for waste dumps. Governments should be encouraged to continue research for both nuclear power and renewables, as well as for carbon capture and storage, nanotechnology, genetic engineering and all the rest.

Will the expansion of the nuclear energy market increase the risk of cancer and other health concerns?

It depends on what an expansion of nuclear power would displace.

Radiation is relevant for nuclear, coal, oil, gas and geothermal power plants. These all bring radioactive material in the Earth’s crust to the surface. The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimates that someone living within 50 miles of a coal fired power plant receives an average dose of 0.3 μSv; someone living within 50 miles of a nuclear power plant receives 0.09 μSv. Both are more than one thousand times less than the average dose received by people in the USA from X rays and other medical procedures, and more than ten thousand times less than their average dose from natural background radiation.

The figure below presents a worldwide comparison, based on data from the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation (UNSCEAR). On a logarithmic scale, it shows that the average radiation dose from nuclear power production is one ten-thousandth of the dose from natural background sources. Background sources include cosmic rays and naturally occurring radioactive substances in the air (mainly radon), in food and water (such as potassium), and in the Earth. Human activities create additional exposure, particularly from medical X-rays (as shown in the figure) and nuclear medical procedures. But living in a brick, stone or concrete building; watching television or using a computer terminal; travelling in a jet airplane; and wearing a luminous wristwatch all add to the dose. The incremental dose from a home smoke detector is comparable to that from living within 50 miles of a nuclear power plant.



Figure. Worldwide average annual per capita dose from natural and anthropogenic radiation (adapted from UNSCEAR (2000)).

Other Pro/Con sites for Nuclear Energy
http://www.gdrc.org/uem/nuclear.html
http://www.nuclearpowerprocon.org/pop/conflicts.htm
http://www.nuclearpowerprocon.org/
http://library.thinkquest.org/3471/nuclear_energy_body.html
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Top Comment
raves +6   by Archie

Answered Nuclear Energy, sure

I am pro nuclear energy. That is the only realistic alternative in the near future.
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  • raves +1   [-] by NickName

    Answered None of the above

    One issue I didn't see raised here is the centralized nature of nuclear power plants, which makes them more vulnerable to natural disasters or terrorist attack. I also did not see any attention paid to the high stakes of such potential disasters. No matter how much we manage to reduce the likelihood of such disasters, the risks are truly catastrophic in terms of danger to human life, the environment, and the very habitability of the area surrounding nuclear power plants.

    Another issue with the centrality is that it makes us all more dependant on some centralized beaurocracy. Quite literally, it concentrates power into the hands of the few, who then may distribute it out as they please. And the people as a whole are at their mercy.

    I also thought that many of the problems associated with storage and disposal of waste were kind of glossed over. The processes offered as solutions are all excessively difficult to implement (given the thin margin of error) from a technical standpoint. And some of the offered solutions are experimental, meaning we're not even sure they will end up being feasible.

    In any case, I agree that we should be discussing all options when it comes to energy, including nuclear, but in my opinion many of the current problems with our electrical grid (lack of modularity for starters), would be exacerbated by relying on nuclear power as a centerpiece for our future energy policy.

    Great blog though. Thanks for posting it.
  • raves +1   [-] Ihr Hase replied to NickName
    I was looking for the intelligent discussion about this...

    Thank you...

    In this country, there are permits required for nuclear power plants, but they are not government facilities, I am uncertain if this is the centralisation you are concerned with, maybe you could clarify for me....

    Disposal is an issue, but I think that if we keep putting off using this resource we will keep putting off development of the disposal technology....

    As for terrorism....

    Maybe we should be minding our own business instead of telling the world how to live....
  • raves     [-] NickName replied to Ihr Hase
    As to decentralization...Nuclear power plants produce vast amounts of energy which is then distributed out to a broad geographic area, making everyone in that area reliant on just that one centralized source of energy. Hence, whoever controls that source of energy has tremendous power (so to speak) over all of those people who rely on that one source of energy (federalists make a similar argument for states' rights).

    As to terrorism...I don't think you and I necessarily disagree on your point, but it is nonetheless safer to make ourselves strategically less vulnerable to terrorist attacks or natural disasters.

    And with disposal, I'm just not convinced we will ever have a means of disposing of nuclear waste in a manner that is responsible toward future generations and cost-effective (a relative term I know). And in any case I think we should get that issue worked out first before we create more nuclear waste than we already have. The bottom line is that it is very dangerous stuff. (I thought this was an interesting article from about ten years ago: http://www.state.nv.us/nucwas... The thought that a spent fuel rod could kill anyone close by within ten minutes of exposure is just troubling to me, no matter how many failsafes are in place).

    I know many people do not t...
    As to decentralization...Nuclear power plants produce vast amounts of energy which is then distributed out to a broad geographic area, making everyone in that area reliant on just that one centralized source of energy. Hence, whoever controls that source of energy has tremendous power (so to speak) over all of those people who rely on that one source of energy (federalists make a similar argument for states' rights).

    As to terrorism...I don't think you and I necessarily disagree on your point, but it is nonetheless safer to make ourselves strategically less vulnerable to terrorist attacks or natural disasters.

    And with disposal, I'm just not convinced we will ever have a means of disposing of nuclear waste in a manner that is responsible toward future generations and cost-effective (a relative term I know). And in any case I think we should get that issue worked out first before we create more nuclear waste than we already have. The bottom line is that it is very dangerous stuff. (I thought this was an interesting article from about ten years ago: http://www.state.nv.us/nucwas... The thought that a spent fuel rod could kill anyone close by within ten minutes of exposure is just troubling to me, no matter how many failsafes are in place).

    I know many people do not think logically or rationally when it comes to nuclear waste, but with such high stakes, I think we should be erring on the side of caution in every respect. I would rather overestimate the danger than underestimate it.

    Here are some other articles I found interesting:
    http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs...
    http://www.princeton.edu/~glo...
    http://www.peacecoalition.org...

    Anyhow, as I said, I'm not completely against the idea of even talking about nuclear power, but I think it is an area in which we could not exercise enough caution.
  • raves +1   [-] Ihr Hase replied to NickName
    I do not agree with your centralization argument....

    How really is that different from current power plants?

    I understand that it is scary stuff, but the fact is that eventually the oil will be gone, and something has to be done....

    I believe that Jerry is powered by a Nuclear plant, well someone who posted early on here is, you could ask him about it... I will save this as I will have to come back... time to get ready for work...
  • raves     [-] NickName replied to Ihr Hase
    It depends on the power generator. If you're talking about wind and solar, and even geo-thermal, they all have great potential to be decentralized. You start talking about massive hydro-electric dams, then you run into the same problem as with nuclear. Fossil fuels are portable, so as a power supply they can also be decentralized (although as a non-renewable resource that happens to lie underneath the surface of a bunch of foreign countries I think it would be folly to continue to rely too heavily on any fossil fuels).

    In any case, I think we need to make some effort toward decentralization of the energy grid, and nuclear power, along with some other forms push us in the wrong direction.

    You're right that something has to be done, and we need a focused national effort. I'm just wary of making nuclear power a centerpiece for the future for the reasons I've mentioned and some others.
  • raves +1   [-] Ihr Hase replied to NickName
    I do not like the words "National Effort"...

    I think that is a big issue of centralization that we disagree on....
    You are talking about portability and I am talking about government centralization...
    I think making things a national effort makes people default to nationalizing what should be, in this country, private business....

    I do not pretend to elude that nuclear power should be a centerpiece for the future, although it does have the potential if we are intending on ever doing anything at the public level off planet...

    I have said before if I could afford to I would be off the energy grid in an instant, I am still waiting for that to be affordable like they have been promising for the past 15 years....
  • raves +1   [-] NickName replied to Ihr Hase
    I am talking about portability, but it creates a natural monopoly for whoever controls the center when you do not have portability. As for government centralization, you're right, you and I differ, but we already know that.

    I guess I'll paraphrase my point of view, and say that some issues are too large to solve at a local level, and I think energy infrastructure is one of those issues precisely because it has been centralized for so long. If we had modularized to begin with, we might not be in a situation today where we have to rely on a central government to shift its policy dramatically. But that is where we are whether we like it or not. Whatever changes we make will take a national effort.

    And as for using nuclear off of the planet, I am in 100% agreement. It's kind of ridiculous that all of space is highly irradiated yet for some reason we are afraid to use nuclear energy in space. I guess it's kind of a relic of the cold war.
  • raves     [-] by chastity_1111

    Answered No, it is too risky

    it is ignorance,
    what moral high ground would we then have ,
    as we deny our enemy's this power...HIS energy is the only choice...
    time to choose life!!!!!
    http://360.yahoo.com/profile-...
    j
  • raves     [-] Ihr Hase replied to chastity_1111
    What?

    "HIS energy is the only choice"
  • raves     [-] chastity_1111 replied to Ihr Hase
    you know , that wich is all ready created waiting to be harnest,
    HIS energy,
    wind solar, water,
    thermal...
    so many choices,
    that don't leave a pile of dung to try to store.
    j
    To Choose Life

    O my GOD, incline Thine ear, and hear;

    open Thine eye's,

    and behold our desolations,

    and the city which is called by Thy name;

    for we "do not" present our supplications before YOU

    for righteousness,

    but for YOUR mercy's.

    Faith without works is dead… James.2:26

    I delight to do Thy will, O my God Ps.40:8

    For the time is come that judgement of GOD:

    and if it first begin at us

    what shall the end of them that obey not the gospel of GOD? < 1 Peter 4:17>

    (Revelations 11:18)

    And if the righteous scarcely be saved, (Hebrews 2:10)

    where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    Therefore let them that suffer according to the will of GOD (Hebrews 2:10)

    "commit" the keeping of their souls. <1 Peter 4:18-19>

    Every way of a man is right in his own eyes:

    but the Lord ponders the heart.

    "To Do" justice and judgements is more acceptable to the Lord then sacrifice.



    The robbery of the wicked shall destroy them:

    because they "refuse" "to do" judgement.

    (Revelations 11:18)

    For that which befalls the...
    you know , that wich is all ready created waiting to be harnest,
    HIS energy,
    wind solar, water,
    thermal...
    so many choices,
    that don't leave a pile of dung to try to store.
    j
    To Choose Life

    O my GOD, incline Thine ear, and hear;

    open Thine eye's,

    and behold our desolations,

    and the city which is called by Thy name;

    for we "do not" present our supplications before YOU

    for righteousness,

    but for YOUR mercy's.

    Faith without works is dead… James.2:26

    I delight to do Thy will, O my God Ps.40:8

    For the time is come that judgement of GOD:

    and if it first begin at us

    what shall the end of them that obey not the gospel of GOD? < 1 Peter 4:17>

    (Revelations 11:18)

    And if the righteous scarcely be saved, (Hebrews 2:10)

    where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    Therefore let them that suffer according to the will of GOD (Hebrews 2:10)

    "commit" the keeping of their souls. <1 Peter 4:18-19>

    Every way of a man is right in his own eyes:

    but the Lord ponders the heart.

    "To Do" justice and judgements is more acceptable to the Lord then sacrifice.



    The robbery of the wicked shall destroy them:

    because they "refuse" "to do" judgement.

    (Revelations 11:18)

    For that which befalls the sons of man befalls beasts;

    even one thing befalls them:

    as one dies, so dies the other,

    they have all "one breath:"

    so that a man has no preeminence above a beast:

    for all is vanity.

    It is joy to the just "to do" judgement: (Hosea 2)

    but destruction will be to the workers of iniquity. (Rev.11:18 Luke 14:18-24)



    If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of GOD; if any man minister,

    let him do it as of the ability which GOD gives:

    that GOD in all things may be glorified through Christ to whom be praised and dominion

    forever and ever amen. <1Peter 4:11>

    See I have set before you this day Life and Good, (Hosea 2)

    and death and evil, (Revelations 11:18)

    in that I command you this day to love the Lord your GOD,

    "to walk in HIS ways"

    and keep HIS commandments,

    that you may live and multiply: (Hosea 2)

    and the Lord your GOD will bless you in the land wherever you go to possess it.

    I call Heaven and Earth to record this day against you,

    that I have set before you Life and death, blessing and cursing: (Rev.11:18)

    therefore "Choose Life",

    that both you and your seed may live: (Hosea 2)

    GOD our FATHER tells us we will sing the song of moses Deut.32

    And HE said, I will hide MY face from them,

    I will see what their end will be:

    for they are a forward generation,

    children of whom is no faith.

    O that they would consider their Latter End.

    Many will be purified and made white, (Heb. 2:10)

    and tried, but the wicked will do wickedly: (Rev.11:18)

    and none of the wicked will understand.

    At the begging of your supplications "the commandment came forth,"

    and I am come to show you;

    for you are greatly beloved:

    therefore understand the matter,

    and consider the vision.< Danial 9:23>

    Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings

    have YOU ordained strength because of YOUR enemies,

    that YOU might still the enemy and the avenger.

    When i consider YOUR Heavens,

    the works of YOUR fingers, the moon and the stars,

    which YOU have ordained.

    But the naturual man recieves not the things of the Spirit of GOD:

    for they are foolishness unto HIM:

    neither can he HE know them, ( Matthew 22:14 many called few chosen)

    because they are spiritualy discerned.

    But he that is spiritual judges all things,

    yet he himself is judged of no man.

    For who has known the mind of the Lord,

    that he may instruct HIM?

    but we have one mind of Christ.<1 Corinthians 2:14-16>

    For "all" have sinned, and come short the Glory of GOD:

    Being justified "freely" by HIS Grace through the redemption that is in Christ

    therefore "Choose Life," (Hosea 2)

    that both you and your seed may live.

    For you may all prophecy one by one

    that all may learn,

    and all may be comforted.<1Corinthians 14:31>

    Repent;

    or else I will come unto you quickly,

    and I will fight against them with the Sword of MY mouth,

    he that have an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches.

    For the time is come that judgement must begin at us,

    what will the end be who "Do" "not" obey the gospel of GOD?<1 Peter 4:17>

    And set forth HIS servents to call them that were bidden to the wedding:

    and they would not come.

    you cannot drink the cup of the Lord,

    and the cup of devils<1 Corinthians 10:21>

    Verily, I say unto you,

    I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine,

    until that day that I drink it new in the Kingdom of GOD.

    Lead me in the way everlasting Ps.139:24
  • raves     [-] Ihr Hase replied to chastity_1111
    Thank you for your time....

    I think this would be the point where I stop talking to you, for both our benefit.....
  • raves +1   [-] by mk, Supreme Smartass

    Answered Nuclear Energy, sure

    the French get about 85% of the energy from it now. So why can't we do the same?
  • raves     [-] chastity_1111 replied to mk, Supreme Smartass
    o now the french r smart.....what a laugh...its an imoral choice,
    never mind scripture....
    for a moment,
    fact is we deny it to others,
    how then can we base our economy on it?
    i almost said free ecconomy....that would have been an oxymoron.
    j
  • raves +1   [-] by JD~NObama

    Answered Nuclear Energy, sure

    Other countries, like France, have been successful with it. I don't see why we can't do as well or better.
  • raves +3   [-] by SparkleyFlowers (NSFW)

    Answered Nuclear Energy, sure

    I'm all for nuclear energy.

    Penn and Teller have an excellent Bullshit episode that touches on the subject of nuclear energy and all of the bogus hype against it. NUKES, HYBRIDS & LESBIANS is the episode. They'll even show you some boobies (I think).
  • raves +2   [-] SparkleyFlowers (NSFW) replied to SparkleyFlowers (NSFW)
  • raves +2   [-] by DoofusCastorCanadensis

    Answered Nuclear Energy, sure

    There is that nasty radioactive waste to deal with, but this is a viable option. The costs of building the reactor must be factored in. Further, there is still viable evidence to support solar, wind, and hydro energy as well. It's not a panacia yet, but the original car wasn't a Ferrarri either.
  • raves +2   [-] by Liv

    Answered No, it is too risky

    Wouldn't nuclear energy be worse for the environment than fossil fuels?
  • raves +4   [-] Ihr Hase replied to Liv
    I do not think so, I think that we are close enough to technology that makes this safe...
  • raves +2   [-] Liv replied to Ihr Hase
    See, you think, you're not sure. Who is to be positive that it won't hurt the environment? We need to reverse the harm we have done on mother nature instead of making it worse! Why does no one else see that? It is so god damn frustrating to feel like the only one who actually cares. Is that it? Do people just not care? This earth is your HOME! Keep it clean like you keep your own house clean!
  • raves +2   [-] Ihr Hase replied to